> The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun.
It sort of is, though: someone's use of a pronoun only exists to the extent that others refer to them that way. My pronouns for myself are I/me/mine. Your avoidance of the pronouns I prefer denies me the "use" of those pronouns. I can't use them without your help.
Not disagreeing about the positive/negative rights characterization. And bigger picture: you're right that this really is about respect. Many people want to demand (even if not compel) more attention to mutual respect; many others want to use disrespectfulness as an indicator of their independence, because they view that as a more important value.
Right? It's like if someone asked me "Hey, I'd prefer you call me Robert instead of Bobby" and I got pissed about it because they're trying to infringe on my free speech.
It's their identity, they're asking you to identify them a particular way.
Are they asking you to expend a small amount of effort to mentally adjust how to refer to them? Yes. Have people been changing nicknames over their lives for probably hundreds or thousands of years? Also yes.
But you ask someone to use a different pronoun and suddenly it's just too much.
I see it being compared to demanding people call you "King Robert (the Beloved) III, the Resplendent." Is it disrespectful not to meet their demands because it makes you feel silly? At what point are you allowed to say that they require excessive external effort to help them maintain their identity?
I mean I know plenty of people who want to be called ridiculous things, on the internet for example I'm talking to someone who apparently is called DangitBobby. And I'm KittenInABox. I'd be super weirded out if someone demanded that my name is too ridiculous and they'll call me Susan instead on the internet because its their free speech rights.
In the context of the internet it wouldn't be silly at all for us to call each other those things! But the internet is also sort of a wild west of etiquette so all bets are off.
Well, not at the point where you say "she" instead of "he". The fact that you can come up with a ridiculous example doesn't mean the actual request is ridiculous.
I don't think that she, he, or they are ridiculous. I personally have never been instructed on someone's pronouns before so I have no real life example of something that I would find ridiculous. But it's not difficult for me to imagine a set of pronouns that I would not enjoy using, and would probably avoid interactions with someone who insisted that I use them.
So you're making an argument against the concept of respecting someone's requested pronouns, because it's "not difficult for you to imagine" a situation where you would "feel silly" even though you've never even encountered someone who asked you to use even non-silly pronouns.
Great contribution.
The sad thing is that while this is only a conversation on the internet, there are people out there passing laws affecting actual humans with the same amount of actual exposure to those humans and based entirely on their own imagined discomfort.
Okay. I can tell you feel your logical position is much stronger than it actually is. We need not live through things to form opinions, and since I've never had to deny anyone's pronoun request I'm not really sure what you think you're defending against. Maybe explain how you think my opinion wrong instead of huffing and puffing about hypotheticals being evil. I don't feel the shame you've tried to direct my way. Maybe some second hand embarrassment for what I'm reading. Great contribution.
Their are plenty non ridiculous examples, but no clear place to draw the line.
What if I asked to be addressed as "Sir"? Would it matter if I were nobility, or a nobody just trying to assert dominance? Or if you hated me and thought I was the opposite of a gentleman? But what if I thought of myself as a perfect gentlemen? Are you bound by my self perception?
Ridiculous is a relative term. If I think a request is ridiculous, am I free to ignore it?
> But you ask someone to use a different pronoun and suddenly it's just too much.
It may indeed be. I likely don't have the time or energy to correctly address people who insist on being called they/them, or xe/xem. I have enough trouble remembering people's names.
Getting someone's pronoun wrong by accident happens. And it's generally just an "oh sorry, I'll try to get that right next time" and you move on. The problematic people are the ones who make a deliberate point of not using the pronouns that someone would like them to use, because they've independently decided that those pronouns are wrong.
Well, they say it's too much - but really it's just that they believe you aren't a valid member of the group you're claiming to be and they can't directly call you a liar. They're wrong, of course; but they're also lying when they say it's too much effort - that's not why.
Yes, very much a lack of respect for someone's choice of identity.
Forget nicknames, how would these people feel if somebody just said "Hey I'm going to call you Arnold now, because you fit my mental image of Arnold." Wildly inappropriate thing to do?
If you want to go and impose whatever pronoun you want on someone based on how they look, don't act shocked when you get called out for being a dick to them.
We don't have an obligation to call somebody by their real name nor should we have an obligation to use their preferred pronouns. We should do it out of respect, but we shouldn't be obligated to do so by law or some other rule.
I've not seen someone suffer negative consequences for calling someone else the wrong real name. I've seen instances of negative consequences for someone using the wrong pronoun though.
Is that because there would be no consequences if I showed up to my job and started calling every customer I talk to "Frank"?
Or is it because deliberately going out of your way to call people the wrong name to make a political point isn't a thing that anyone does, so nobody has needed a rule to make them knock it off?
It sort of is, though: someone's use of a pronoun only exists to the extent that others refer to them that way. My pronouns for myself are I/me/mine. Your avoidance of the pronouns I prefer denies me the "use" of those pronouns. I can't use them without your help.
Not disagreeing about the positive/negative rights characterization. And bigger picture: you're right that this really is about respect. Many people want to demand (even if not compel) more attention to mutual respect; many others want to use disrespectfulness as an indicator of their independence, because they view that as a more important value.