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> The best anyone can hope for is a free market, with everything properly priced. But for decades, the American market has not been free. It’s used purposefully added friction to exploit a time asymmetry between the business and you. And due to things like call centers, this has been very profitable for the businesses. Cable companies and insurance rely on the fact that your time is more valuable than theirs. They can hire people in India at scale to waste your time.

That is the market being free, George.



The market actually is not very free, because large companies increasingly use their weight to pull off things that smaller companies or individual customers cannot afford: lobby to obtain preferences, tax exemptions, exclusive deals, other favors that violate or at least skirt the law.

But running a call center overseas is not one of these things.


That what companies do in a free market. They all try to become a monopoly.


You cannot call it a free market if government lobbying exists and is the primary tool for establishing monopolies.

Nor you cannot call it a free market if the government is allowed to favour or penalise one entity or one sector over the other.

I know words don't mean anything these days, but there is no angle in which you can call modern economy a free one.


“a real free market economy just hasn’t been tried” where have I heard that before?


As soon as we admit that humans are easily corrupted, the sooner we can stop finger pointing and start developing systems to mitigate the natural tendency toward corruption.


Isn’t that free market capitalism? We assume everyone will act in their own best interest and that this results in the most efficient allocation of resources.


That’s just one way of becoming a monopoly.

Is it a free market if there’s antimonopoly agency?


Government lobbying is just one way to put a hand on the scale of the market. Legislation, incentives favouring unprofitable endeavours, etc.


I cannot understand how any of the things you describe are not free. The government kowtowing to corporations is as free as it gets. No one said that just because the market is free that you personally wouldn’t end up holding the shit end of the stick


Free markets don't exist, or they only do for a very brief period of time. It's the same fundamental force behind why social hierarchies naturally form, and communism doesn't work in practice.

When governments kowtow to corporations, it's the corporations who are then acting as the government. For example, in states like Texas, Alabama, and Wisconsin, laws prohibit automakers from selling vehicles directly to consumers. But these laws only exist because dealer associations wanted and lobbied for them to protect their business. Which is to show that freedom itself isn't a matter of who is kowtowing to whom, but merely whether or not kowtowing is happening whatsoever. If it is, then someone's freedom is being restrained, and said market environment could be argued to not be "free". In fact, this is what Tesla has argued multiple times in court in such states in that these laws are anticompetitive, and violate due process and the commerce clause.


The violence of the state makes the market not "free." Unless you want to abstract all the way out: the planet is and always has been run through violent coercion by psycopaths, and, as exampled by reality, they are "free" to do so.

But in the sense they mean, the violence of the state precludes a free market. For the record, I do not believe in the validity of money, coercion, usury, violence.


Hold up, there are two very different kinds of "free" that pop up, from mutually incompatible ends of a spectrum.

In the first, it's a "free" market because everything moves smoothly and efficiently in ways that make economic mathematicians happy. There's perfect information, all transactions and prices and actor-identities are are known, and it's generally assumed there are no monopolies or monopsonies.

In the second, individual actors are "free" to construct secret deals with special secret prices, non-disclosure agreements, act anonymously through proxies, etc.

At least in US politics, the equivocation is common: Someone appeals to the benefits of the first, while promoting the contradictory mechanics of the second.


People often confuse “free” with “fair”.


People often confuse “free” with “unregulated”, too.


No they don't. That is the very definition.


>> People often confuse “free” with “unregulated”, too. >No they don't. That is the very definition.

Using that definition amounts to classifying all real markets as non-free.

Unregulated markets cannot exists in reality or in a sound theory, only in wishy-washy fairy tales.


I'm not recommending we build a frictionless plane, I'm just saying it doesn't have friction. This is the most politely I've ever been called a libertarian.


Sure they do. People often confuse the definition of a platonic ideal with the realities of implementation, and few are versed enough to both comprehend the literal dictionary definitions of “free” having a fork that one can choose to take to “unregulated” and to recognize that the phrase “free market” is imprecise. One either means “a market free of regulations”, or “a market free of adversarial interference by buyers or sellers”, or “a market free of reputational restrictions”, etc. That you’re correct in identifying a dictionary binding from the definition to the interpretation you give precedence when the imprecise form “free market” is used, does not negate the correctness of others preferring their own interpretations for equally valid reasons. Thus my point: confusion occurs, because “free” is inherently a contextual claim whose eventual outcome-branch (in your case, unregulated) is more often than not subject to individual bias and belief rather than singular societal meanings.

Not to mention, that definitions shift over time. Or that claiming the definition to mean “unregulated” to the exclusion of all other meanings is a form of propaganda-slash-evangelism (and so, duly noted in cad you were unaware, as it can be received quite poorly). Or that “fair” is similarly misinterpretable for the same reasons: I prefer fair markets because I can eat cotton candy and listen to people screaming on the rides as I consider each booth’s offerings - and my interpretation of that statement is, in at least two communities I used to work in, the most contextually appropriate take on it! (AI, of course, can’t keep up with that usage, which is honestly a plus in favor of it, but for the ESL folks trying to figure out what I mean, fair → faire / carnival / festival.)


I'm not recommending we build a frictionless plane, I'm just saying it doesn't have friction.


My understanding of the definition of a "free" market is it would have almost no external regulation.

However, a "unregulated free market" is nearly impossible--somw player will eventually drive out competition to maximize profits and some will not be troubled at harming or killing their customers in the name of immediate profit (tobacco, sugared drinks, talc powder, and round-up come to mind immediately but the list is very long).

Is market with enough regulations to ensure competitiveness and transaction transparency (including long-term consequences) truly "free"?


It comes down to what’s “free”: most people want that to mean freedom of choice for buyers but sellers want that to mean freedom from restrictions. Trying to balance the two depends critically on regulation because it’s too easy for larger players to reduce the choices for everyone else.


One popular desire is common, but not universal, in both groups: the freedom to lie, cheat, swindle those party to a transaction without consequence. It may help to consider that ‘the consequences of one’s actions’, such as lying or cheating in the above case, are viewed by many as a violation of their personal freedom from persecution (e.g. “it’s not my fault you didn’t stop me from conning you”); that extends to their participation in trade as well.

I assume that the pools of either corporate entities and/or their leadership cogs have a much higher percentage of adherence to said belief than the general pool of either buyers and/or sellers excluding such, as the corporate implementation of liability shielding exists specifically to sate this need.


Indeed, the market shouldn't be, and is not, entirely free. We should strive for the right balance between freedom and regulation.


A "free market" is one in which all the participants of the market have perfect information and act completely rationally. This is, of course, an academic ideal, similar to solving a physics problem that tells you to ignore friction.

What we have is a "capitalist market", where those with more power (capital) within the market leverage it to exploit the other participants. Capitalists use their money to extract as much money as possible from a segment of the market, usually destroying it in the process. But for a beautiful moment in time they created a lot of value for shareholders!


Neither the cable nor the insurance business operate in free markets.


No. The market being free would mean that a private person can also hire Indians to call companies.


No law against doing that. You could use Fiverr for it right now.


what's stopping them from doing so?


I don’t want to give private data up to and including my social security number for verification to start.


What is stopping them?




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